When Business Owners Burn Out

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Podcast Transcript

Loren Feldman:
Welcome, Shawn and Jay. It’s great to have you here. I want to start today with a topic that’s been in the news a good bit of late, and that’s burnout and how to deal with it. In a survey conducted by Walmart, 70 percent of business owners said they feel burned out at least once a month. Of course, the survey did not disclose how many of those owners attributed those feelings of burnout to having to compete with or sell to Walmart. It is an interesting starting point for our conversation. Have either of you felt burned out as business owners?

Jay Goltz:
I have to tell you, after reading it, the answers are right there. I think it’s the wrong question. I don’t think it’s: How do you deal with the burnout? It’s: How do you avoid the burnout? All of the core problems that are causing the burnout, they’re not addressing, and they think it’s inflation.

They always think it’s something else that’s out of their control. It’s inflation! It’s the labor shortage! That certainly hasn’t made it easier, but the one guy says he’s looking to clone himself. Well, there’s a problem. Um, no, you don’t have to clone yourself. You have to find someone who’s competent to do one of the jobs that you do. If you clone yourself, that would be an entrepreneur. They don’t need you.

So it always goes back to the same basic things: hiring, delegating, pricing things properly, so you can afford to pay good people. And if you read all of these things, these are all the symptoms of not doing those things.

Loren Feldman:
But Jay, it took you a long time to get to that point.

Jay Goltz:
Yes, absolutely.

Loren Feldman:
In the past, did you feel burned out as you were finding your way?

Jay Goltz:
I don’t know that burned out is the phrase. Certainly, stressed out. I had 15 years of constant stress, because I didn’t know what I was doing. I had no mentor. I never had a boss.

Loren Feldman:
I think there’s a difference between stressed out and burned out. I think everybody feels stressed from time to time. Burned out is like, “I can’t keep going,” I think.

Jay Goltz:
No, never had it. I always compare it to a sump pump. It goes up, it goes up, and then boom, the thing clicks on, and it just clears the deck. And then in the morning, I feel better. I’ve always been able to reset the next morning and dig in again. Maybe because I’m stupid, and I’m stubborn. I just have always had the resolve to just dig in.

I’ve never said to myself, “Oh, I can’t deal with this.” No, never even crossed my mind. That’s one of my few core competencies, I think. I’m stubborn and have resolve. So no, I can’t say I’ve had quote-unquote burnout to where I actually thought, “I can’t do this anymore.”

Loren Feldman:
How about you, Shawn?

Shawn Busse:
You know, I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day who I’ve known for a really long time. And we kind of started our businesses around the same time and sort of went through a very similar trajectory of discovery and learning and growth. He’s on his way out. He’s gonna turn over the CEO role, I think, in January of next year. And he said to me, “I just don’t have another turnaround in me.” And I’ve heard that a lot, actually.

I read this article, and I was like, “You know, I’ve had that feeling too.” And I think that we’ve all gone through periods in our business where we’ve had just really catastrophic events happen. You know, a key customer leaves, or several customers leave all at once, or several employees leave all at once. And I think the frequency of those events has increased a lot in the last, say, five or 10 years. And I think that’s what I read in that survey. You know, it was like, “Okay, the pandemic: All right, we’re gonna survive that. And then it’s inflation, and then it’s massive turnover, and just on and on and on, supply chain on and on and on.” And I do hear that a lot from a lot of owners.

Jay Goltz:
I completely read that thing differently. First of all, you said catastrophic. Losing some key people, that’s not—catastrophic is finding out you’re sick and you’re gonna die. I don’t know, it’s difficult. Okay, fair enough. But when I read this, this is what I see.

Here’s the big line in there: “55 percent of small business owners surveyed identify ‘inflation’ and ‘rising costs’ as the biggest barriers to growing their business”—I laughed out loud when I read this part—“followed by ‘lack of customers’ and ‘finding and retaining good employees.’” Seriously?! If I just had more business…

I mean, at some point, you need to find out how you get more business. And these are the same people who don’t market, who don’t advertise, who just keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. Of course, everybody would be better off with more business. But is that a new thing? Is that something that just happened?

Loren Feldman:
Jay, why are you assuming they don’t market and don’t advertise?

Jay Goltz:
Because I know many of them. And I’ve heard the story from a hundred people, and when you ask the question—I have never had one person complaining about finding people, when I say to them, “Wait, wait. Stop for a second. Let me ask you a question. Did you write a really great ad and put it in a bunch of different places?” And the answer is, “No.” They complain about it. But I’m not saying it’s not more difficult. Trust me. It’s more difficult to hire. I’m not arguing with that. But it’s certainly not impossible.

I put an ad out for a graphic designer. I got 110 resumes. Some of them you say to yourself, “Why did you apply for this? You’re a truck driver.” Okay, but went through 110, identified seven good candidates. We called seven of them. Two called back. I have no explanation as to what happened to the other five.

So it’s gotten more difficult. But I don’t think this is all outside factors that are wearing people down. I believe, from talking to hundreds of entrepreneurs, they never figured out how to hire people—good people. They never found out how to price properly. It’s basic stuff. And I contend that if you work on the basic stuff in your business, it will get easier.

Shawn Busse:
I don’t know, man. I mean, I appreciate you’ve been at this longer than me. I mean, maybe you’ve got another decade or two on me. But I’ve been doing it 20 years—20-plus. And I just gotta say, the last five to 10 have been radically different from the prior 10 to 15. And what I mean by that is that the frequency of change and externalities has increased tenfold.

Jay Goltz:
Is it really tenfold? I mean, it’s gotten worse in some ways, but is it really tenfold?

Shawn Busse:
I’m not saying worse. I’m just saying change and volatility. So I’m not saying it’s gotten harder, or that the situation’s gotten worse. I’m saying that, when I first got into business, I was told things like, “Shawn, you really need to have a 10-year plan.” And like, I look at that idea today, and I’m like, “You’re frickin foolish.”

Jay Goltz:
Well, that always was foolish. You can’t forecast 10 years.

Shawn Busse:
It was always foolish, but where did that mindset come from? That mindset came from an era of a much, much slower change of pace. And I contend that we’re in an era of greater and greater volatility and change. And I think that humans really struggle with change. And that’s what’s in this survey. That, to me, is what I read.

Jay Goltz:
Well, there’s certainly part of that. I’m not arguing with that. But I would ask you, the person who told you you’ve got to forecast, was that actually a small business owner? Or was that some academic or someone from big business? Because you can’t forecast 10 years on a small business. I don’t know that that has changed.

Shawn Busse:
I agree. That was probably foolish for small businesses from the very beginning. Yes, it’s academic literature that’s informed by corporate America and Wall Street, and small businesses inherit those ideas. But I think my point being here is that, while that was probably never a great idea for small businesses, the pace of change has radically changed. And I think that this type of article is a reflection of that.

I mean, just take, for example, the idea of how hiring used to work. Like, I remember when I first went after jobs, it was, “Shawn, you are lucky to have a job here.” Now, the mindset is massively different. Employees are like, “What’s in it for me? What are you going to do for me?” And I don’t know that they’re wrong to say that, but that’s a paradigm shift.

Jay Goltz:
That’s changed. There’s no doubt about it. But in the same token, though, I’ve hired some lovely, wonderful young people who come to work every day and work hard. So it’s not a 100 percent change. It’s gotten harder. I’m not arguing with that. It’s definitely gotten harder. And a lot of things are driven by Baby Boomers.

The Baby Boomers are now old and retiring, and there are less people to hire, possibly. There have been some structural changes. And certainly, I don’t know that any of us have recovered from 2008. I mean, I know my business never really did, so I’m not saying it’s not difficult out there. I’m just suggesting there are still some core basic things that people still aren’t doing that would make their life easier.

Loren Feldman:
I’m sure that’s true, Jay, but Shawn started with the example of talking to another owner who said he’s not sure he’s got another turnaround in him. I don’t know who Shawn’s talking about, so I don’t know if that was a well-run business that just has hit difficult times.

Jay Goltz:
No, no, I’m not talking about that guy. I’m talking about the article. I’m just reading the article.

Loren Feldman:
Well, I don’t want to just debate the merits of the article.

Jay Goltz:
Okay. Well, that is what I’m talking about, though. I’m just talking about the fact that somebody would go, “Well, if I just had more customers.” Oh, for God’s sake. That’s like, “Oh, I would go to the Olympics if I could just run faster.” I mean, of course we could all use more customers. What are you doing about it, is the question. And when you ask people—and I’ve done it 100 times—they never tell you the right answer.

I deal with vendors all day long. And I just scratch my head at the fact that there’s still people driving—here’s a perfect simple example: You call someone out to your house, whether it’s a plumber, electrician, whatever, and half of them just have blank trucks. You know, you see these beautiful trucks with the name on there so all your neighbors can see who’s doing the work. And they don’t want to do it. One guy once told me, “Well, I don’t want to mark the trucks, because then people call and complain about my guys driving,” which is pretty sad.

Shawn Busse:
If I hear you correctly, Jay, what I hear you saying is that you have to nail the fundamentals.

Jay Goltz:
Yes.

Shawn Busse:
And a lot of folks are not nailing the fundamentals.

Jay Goltz:
Yes. And that would take some of the pressure off.

Shawn Busse:
I agree. I 100 percent agree with that. I think these two ideas support one another. So for many years, I think owners could be totally lazy and shitty at hiring, and their businesses did okay. And I think what’s happened is the landscape has changed. And you can no longer be lazy and shitty at hiring.

Jay Goltz:
I don’t disagree with that. You could just show up.

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, right. And so today, the change that’s happened that has made this a reality is the internet and transparency of work.

Jay Goltz:
Yes, absolutely. I’m 100 percent with you. Yes.

Shawn Busse:
You used to not understand, “Well, what do other people make? What are working conditions like? Is this place a good place to work?” You didn’t know as a candidate. You were just grateful to have a job, and today, the power has changed dramatically.

And so, nailing the fundamentals back then meant you placed an ad for a job. Today, nailing the fundamentals means you need to have an employer brand. You need to have clear communication in the hiring process. You need to articulate your values and your mission and your purpose. You need to actually coach and elevate team members so they grow in the role. You need to get rid of toxic employees fast. Like, those things used to not even be part of the playbook. And today—

Jay Goltz:
I don’t disagree with you. You’re right. When somebody used to not take care of a customer, maybe they told a few customers. Now that goes on the internet, and everybody sees it. But here’s where I laughed out loud. I just want you to think about the people who wrote the survey. They said, “But just 6 percent of HR leaders cited employee burnout as a concern.”

They’re just not concerned about it. What a surprise: In big corporate America, the HR people aren’t concerned about their people burning out. Are they concerned about anything, other than their own jobs? I don’t know. I’ve never worked in big corporate America. I mean, that’s funny, that only 6 percent said burnout is a concern. That doesn’t mean that they don’t know there’s a lot of burnout. They’re just not concerned about it. Are you concerned about it? I’m concerned about it.

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, that was the last line in the article, where it essentially cited that 70 percent of employees are burned out. I mean, two-thirds of the workforce is saying they’re burned out. And then only 6 percent of HR leaders are actually saying that it’s something that they worry about. And I think you’re right. I think they’re surveying HR leaders within corporate America. I don’t think they’re surveying small business owners.

Jay Goltz:
That’s what’s funny about it. They’re just not concerned about it. Because the fact is, people don’t understand—a lot of people. Unless you’ve got 100 employees, you probably don’t have an HR manager. That’s kind of the magic number. I didn’t. So whenever you see an HR person speaking, it’s almost always a larger company. It would have to be, because a company with 15 employees doesn’t have an HR manager.

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, that’s actually a good point, in terms of data gathering.

Loren Feldman:
Shawn, when you were talking about the other owner that you’d spoken with, you expressed some sympathy and indicated that you’d had that same sense from time to time—or maybe once. I’m not sure. I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. Can you tell us what you were referring to?

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, I mean, I tried to list some examples of what I call turnaround moments. But I think the ones that are, in my mind, really significant in my career, were at the beginning of my business, which was the tech meltdown in 2000, the bombing of the World Trade Center, the Great Recession of 2008, the beginning of the pandemic. Moments that were in many ways existential threats and crises to the business, and those are externalities.

And then there are also business level crises. Like, “Oh my gosh, something changed.” A good example would be somebody who really relies on Google AdWords for all of their business, and then Google changes an algorithm. And then suddenly, the thing they used to get their business no longer works. That’s an existential crisis. Or Facebook.

I mean, you have some guests on here who have used Facebook to great effect, and then it no longer works for them. And are they able to reinvent the business? Are they able to actually do a massive change to the business to save it, to literally save it? And those are hard moves. Those are really hard moves, and I’ve done a number of them in my career.

Jay Goltz:
And you know what? I 100 percent agree with you, and you are in a far more volatile business than I am. I certainly have had major drops, like in 2008. But in your business, when business slows down, the first thing they’re gonna cut is maybe people who do what you do. So I certainly understand that you’re more vulnerable to the economy, probably, than I am, to some degree.

But it still gets back to—there’s always a part of this of: All we can do is what we can do. And there are always things you can do in your business. If you’re having a hard time hiring, tune up your hiring process. But I think if you were to follow up with many of these people, they haven’t done anything. They just say, “I can’t find people.” Really? I’m finding people. It’s harder, no question about it.

Shawn Busse:
Well, you also have something that a lot of folks don’t have, Jay, which is: You have size, and size buys you cushion.

Jay Goltz:
Only to a degree. I still have tremendous overhead because of that size. So it’s very easy for me to go from making money to losing money. All I’ve got to do is drop 5-10 percent of sales, and all of a sudden, I go from making money to losing money.

I just learned, over the years, all I can do is all I can do. And I’m always just trying to figure, “Okay, what can I do about this?” So I’m trying to stay ahead of it. And we’re writing better ads, which we’re playing around with where to advertise. I really have no explanation as to why the five people didn’t call back. It makes no sense to me. And I still haven’t hired anyone. This has been going on for two months. It’s just remarkable.

Shawn Busse:
I mean, I think this is a good example of we’re kind of both right here. I tried for a really long time to kind of get into the construction industry as a client base. We have expertise in that arena. I love buildings. I wanted to help this group. I would go to their events, and I would be a speaker, and folks would be super motivated.

They’d be like, “Wow, that’s really great. You really showed us how it can make a big difference to create a culture that’s strong and a hiring process. That’s great.” And then some folks would say, “Hey, yeah, give me a call. I’d love to talk.” And I would call them, and they’d never call me back. They would identify that it’s an issue. They’d complain about it. But they actually wouldn’t change.

Jay Goltz:
Well, I have a phrase for that. I call it trade-show talk. You’re there. You’re hyped up. No one’s lying. They really mean it. They’re all enthusiastic. And they get back to work. “Oh, yeah, that guy. I don’t want to do that.” The fact of the matter is, people don’t do what they need to do.

I remember one guy in particular. I was doing a business speech, and I said, “You know what? One of our jobs as the boss is, there are people who can’t do the job. You’ve tried, you’ve coached them, you’ve done everything you can. Whether they’re unable, whether they’re unwilling, or they’re just unexplainable, your job is to fire them.”

And this guy looks at me. He goes, “Yeah, I’ve got this woman who’s worked with me for years. I promoted her to be the office manager. She’s doing a terrible job. She’s killing me.” So coincidentally, I run into him, I don’t know, six months or a year later at another conference: “How did it go with that woman?” He looks down to his shoes: “Yeah, I gotta do something about that.” That’s what my experience has been talking to people. And being in business groups, same thing. Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah.” But do they actually go ahead and take action?

I’m not saying everything’s whining. It is difficult out there. So it’s absolutely more difficult. But there are some things we can do every single day. And we need to be doing that, because we are flying the plane. We’re not the passengers. We’re flying the plane. Make some adjustments. Figure out what you’re bad at. I’ve certainly got some issues I’m working on. You know, we’ve talked about my inventory problem. I think it’ll be okay by the end of the year, but I’ve still got issues I’m dealing with. But I’ve just learned to deal with it.

Shawn Busse:
Okay, so two things that I think might be a little bit helpful in this situation. So one revelation I had many years ago—and this is from the world of psychology—is that if you remove the stressor, the stressor still remains for a while. And I think that that survey is, to some degree, a lagging indicator. And I think folks are looking to point at something. But I think a lot of owners were just worn out and beaten down by the pandemic. And today, they’re still exhausted, even though the pandemic stressor has been removed. And so then they say, “Oh, yeah, it must be inflation or supply chain,” you know? They’re trying to point to something. But my theory of the case is that it’s the exhaustion from the pandemic.

And then the second thing—this is hugely helpful for me, in terms of employees and burnout—is that employees have three things going on in their life. They have where they live—their community; their home life—their partnership, their spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, whatever; and their job. And when something is not working or they’re under stress, generally humans seek to change something. And a lot of times, they can’t change the first two things. They can’t change their spouse. They can’t change where they live. And so they’ll change their job, even if the job isn’t the source of the stress. They’ll start to look at it and go, “I’m unhappy. It must be the job.”

I’ve seen people do this so many times. They’ll be like, “It must be the job.” They go take a new job, and they’re still unhappy. And I think that the last few years have been really hard on everybody and things outside of work. And so, as a result, I think you’ve got a lot of things like the Great Resignation, you get employee burnout. That isn’t necessarily related to work, but it’s the one thing that they can change.

Jay Goltz:
There’s no question that everything you said is true. It has gotten more difficult. And I certainly have had examples of that. My only point is, it’s half that and it’s half fundamentals that we all need to be working on. And I would argue, even without the pandemic, have you never talked to a business owner who goes, “Oh, you can’t find people that want to work these days”? Have you not heard that?

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, sure.

Jay Goltz:
I mean, you know, really? You know what I’ve learned over the years? The difference between me and many people, especially in the picture frame business, is I spent all of my time trying to figure out, “What am I doing wrong? And what do I need to fix?” And they don’t spend any time on that. They’ve just convinced themselves they’re doing everything right. And I don’t know how you improve if you don’t continually be your own worst critic.

Loren Feldman:
Shawn, you talk to business owners all the time. Do they go through the process Jay just described by asking, “What am I doing wrong? Why is this not working?”

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, I think the folks who become our clients are really open like that and are curious. I would say they start from a position of curiosity: “What can I do better? What can change?” I mean, I had a client once where he bought the business from the founder, and their workers comp insurance—they were about to become disqualified for workers comp—they had so many workplace incidents.

And the prior owners just looked at that and was like, “Well, you know, people just need to be more safe.” And then the new owners were like, “Actually,”—to Jay’s point—“we could implement some processes that help take this people-just-need-to-be-more-safe mindset out of it. And actually, the place becomes more safe.” They turned that thing around like crazy. They’re saving 100 grand a year on workers comp policy because they said, “What do we need to change? What status quo is failing us?” And I think owners who do that, they’re the winners. And those are the ones I like to work with.

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